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Talk:Vayne/@comment-3985944-20110513164541/@comment-3985944-20110516011253
I really appreciate the intelligent posts, Akuni and Usiar. It's nice to see there are some fellow competent individuals in this community. After many games as Vayne, I've noticed her biggest weakness is her overall range. I'll discusss this first and then rebuttle with a Silver Bolts argument. All in good nature though. 3/4's of Vayne's abilities are rooted within her auto-attacks. (Also, I believe Condemn's range is 555 or less) So every time you step in to poke with your combo, you're in a lot more danger when you make harass maneuvers compared to other champions. I feel that if a Vayne is owning you during the laning phase, you're probably lacking 1 CC in your lane (Which I feel is a fault from the beginning in team composition). Any well though out lane combination should have no problem with a Vayne. I once laned against a Xin and Sona as Vayne (for an exmaple), needless to say I got owned all laning phase because the Xin was smart than to just stand there when I engage with my Tumble combo. Every time I would step in towards Sona or Xin, trying to maintain the most distance as possible, Xin would be right on top of me; playing reactively to my combo, instead of proactively. Even Condemn was never enough to keep the distance between us, Xin was succesfully on me like White on Rice. Now moving onto Silver Bolts. In my experience, I've never had the damage from this occur more than 3 times in a chase, that is assuming that the enemy team is high ELO (like myself) and they don't overextend by 2 towers to fail at a backdoor attempt, or just trying to farm creeps at that distance into the fog of war of the enemy territory. So in a decent chase sequence, I'll deal 24% of their max health in true damage. However, when you consider that they are a squishy already, I say it's much worse to have been dealt over 40% of your max health with one magic ability damage (in an instant, mind you), even after resistances. (Which a WW or Malzahar will do with ease if they pick the proper gank target). Malzahar in particular WILL be dealing true damage when you think about it. He will have at least 8.5 MPEN from runes, 15% from Archaic Knowledge, combine with (most likely) sorcerors shoes. I think comparing Silver Bolts to Olaf's 'Reckless Swing' is fair for this argument. * Silver Bolts (Level 5) - (70 + 8% Max HP) true damage - No scaling - Occurs every 3rd AA * Reckless Swing (Level 5) - 340 true damage - No scaling - 4 second base cooldown In this number run, we are going to assume all champions on the map are level 9. At level 9, champions that Olaf or Vayne would be targeting average 1000-1200 HP. Silver Bolts deals (70 + 1000/1200 x 8%) = 150 - 186 true damage; (Potentially every 3rd AA) Reckless Swing deals 340 true damage regardless of circumstances (Pot. every 4 seconds) By this point in the game, ganking has really become the primary focus. This is the time where the 'carry' will be building themselves up by feeding on enemy champions. It's fair to say that on average a Vayne will have approximately 1.2 attack speed by this point, meaning she receives a Silver Bolt every 2-3 seconds. If a chase scenario lasts 8 seconds (Say they are pushed to your first tower and they have their first tower to retreat to as well), Vayne will have received 2-3 Silver Bolts, resulting in (186 x 3) = 558 true damage. This is assuming you were able to stay glued to your target with AA's the entire duration. Olaf in the same scenario would have gotten 2 Reckless Swings, resulting in (340 x 2) 680 true damage. The difference is that Olaf receives his instantaneously in a much larger amount and Vayne receives hers in chips over time. I personally feel that gank power comes from the ability to have larger burst DPS than sustained DPS. Having more burst damage allows you to pop out for ganks and burst squishies to death before they have to time to react or flee, instead of relying on a perfect chase scenario all the way from end of the lane to the other. People do a lot of complaining just because Vayne can chase you down really well when she pops out with the upper-hand, however I'd much rather try to escape a Vayne than just stand there and take suppression from a jungling WW or roaming Malzahar. Continuing on to her tank slaying ability, I would have to agree upon a total readjustment to this ability. Your math shows well, Usiar. My counter to that argument would be that there shouldn't be a scenario where an enemy Vayne should be allowed to just stand in the back and focus you the entire time (With resistances like that, the % true damage will be nearly the ONLY damage she deals to you =p) without being intercepted or CC'd by someone on your team. On the whole though, I agree with you. That amount of true damage output towards tanks is just silly. Instead of just a damage adjustment or switch to magic damage, I propose a complete readjustment. 1. Turn to % true damage into an active effect that persists for a duration while also providing it a different passive effect. For example, 'Passive : Upon Silver Bolt proc, target's armor is reduced by (flat amount) X. Active : Silver Bolts gains three max health % (say 5-6%) true damage charges that must be consumed within X seconds (It would essentially work as an ammo). This would take away her ability to be able to focus down a tank with true damage, while still allowing her to use it as a finisher that just works a little better on tanks. 2. This one is kind of out there, but I think it's an interesting concept. Have her Silver Bolts proc begin a timer, it would work like this. 'An enemy that receives a Silver Bolt proc has their armor lowered by X and becomes marked for X (say 3-4) seconds. If an additional Silver Bolt is landed within that window of time, enemy champions takes the base damage plus bonus damage for how much damage they receieved (or how much % HP was lost) in between the Silver Bolts. -> Explanation because I know it's not flawlessly worded -> You mark the target with your first 3 auto-attacks, then you time your next 3rd Silver Bolt stack so that they take as much damage as possible in that window. It's sort of making it deal damage based on how much HP they've lost (like Lee Sin), except additional focus fire in between your first and second Silver Bolts would make them take additional damage.